Chronically Living and how to make the most of it

What are you noticing about your jaw and head pain? with Dr. Dave Shirazi

July 05, 2021 Kelsey. Dr. David Shirazi Season 2 Episode 2
Chronically Living and how to make the most of it
What are you noticing about your jaw and head pain? with Dr. Dave Shirazi
Chapters
Chronically Living and how to make the most of it
What are you noticing about your jaw and head pain? with Dr. Dave Shirazi
Jul 05, 2021 Season 2 Episode 2
Kelsey. Dr. David Shirazi

Craniofacial pain includes TMJ disorders, migraines, headaches, neck pain, trigeminal neuralgia, and more and is quite common. TMJ disorders alone affect 5-12% of the population. But how can we treat them? This week, Dr. Dave Shirazi shares his expertise in this area, with a holistic approach to dentistry and craniofacial pain.
In this episode we talk about:

  • the different craniofacial pain disorders
  • traditional treatment methods
  • holistic approaches to treatment
  • using the observer self or meta position to look at our own pain

Support the show:

Guest Bio:
Dr. Shirazi graduated from Howard University College of Dentistry, in Washington D.C. in 2000 and earned a Masters degree in Oriental Medicine from SAMRA University in 2006 and is also a board licensed Acupuncturist.  He has completed over 2000 hours of continuing education in TMD and facial pain, craniomandibular orthopedics, and sleep disordered breathing.  He has also completed a hospital mini-residency in oriental medicine at the China Beijing International Acupuncture Training Centre which is the only organization the World Health Organization (WHO) has authorized to teach internationally on acupuncture and herbology, and another at Kyung Hee University and Medical Center, the top medical hospital and medical research school in Korea. In 2011 through 2016, he became a board licensed RPSGT, the first and so far only, dual degreed dentist and RPSGT.  He is the founder of the Bite, Breathe and Balance study group, dedicated to the multidisciplinary approach to treating craniofacial pain and sleep disorders. Dr. Shirazi is the director of state of the art private practices, The TMJ and Sleep Therapy Centre of Conejo Valley and Los Angeles, that is limited to the treatment of TMD, craniofacial pain, Sleep breathing disorders, and craniomandibular orthopedics.  His practice is part of the TMJ and Sleep Therapy Centre international family, one of over 60 Centres throughout the world, and is located in the beautiful hills of Thousand Oaks, Brentwood CA.  Personally, Dr. Shirazi enjoys hiking and camping in the state parks, traveling, and speaking.  He is married to the love of his life Kimberly Shirazi, and have welcomed their first born, Maximus. They live in the Santa Monica Mountains, where all are very close to nature.
http://www.sleepconejo.com/index/index.php
https://tmjtherapycentre.com/

Show Notes Transcript

Craniofacial pain includes TMJ disorders, migraines, headaches, neck pain, trigeminal neuralgia, and more and is quite common. TMJ disorders alone affect 5-12% of the population. But how can we treat them? This week, Dr. Dave Shirazi shares his expertise in this area, with a holistic approach to dentistry and craniofacial pain.
In this episode we talk about:

  • the different craniofacial pain disorders
  • traditional treatment methods
  • holistic approaches to treatment
  • using the observer self or meta position to look at our own pain

Support the show:

Guest Bio:
Dr. Shirazi graduated from Howard University College of Dentistry, in Washington D.C. in 2000 and earned a Masters degree in Oriental Medicine from SAMRA University in 2006 and is also a board licensed Acupuncturist.  He has completed over 2000 hours of continuing education in TMD and facial pain, craniomandibular orthopedics, and sleep disordered breathing.  He has also completed a hospital mini-residency in oriental medicine at the China Beijing International Acupuncture Training Centre which is the only organization the World Health Organization (WHO) has authorized to teach internationally on acupuncture and herbology, and another at Kyung Hee University and Medical Center, the top medical hospital and medical research school in Korea. In 2011 through 2016, he became a board licensed RPSGT, the first and so far only, dual degreed dentist and RPSGT.  He is the founder of the Bite, Breathe and Balance study group, dedicated to the multidisciplinary approach to treating craniofacial pain and sleep disorders. Dr. Shirazi is the director of state of the art private practices, The TMJ and Sleep Therapy Centre of Conejo Valley and Los Angeles, that is limited to the treatment of TMD, craniofacial pain, Sleep breathing disorders, and craniomandibular orthopedics.  His practice is part of the TMJ and Sleep Therapy Centre international family, one of over 60 Centres throughout the world, and is located in the beautiful hills of Thousand Oaks, Brentwood CA.  Personally, Dr. Shirazi enjoys hiking and camping in the state parks, traveling, and speaking.  He is married to the love of his life Kimberly Shirazi, and have welcomed their first born, Maximus. They live in the Santa Monica Mountains, where all are very close to nature.
http://www.sleepconejo.com/index/index.php
https://tmjtherapycentre.com/

Kelsey Harris:

What to do about jaw pain and neck pain, and migraines and all the other cranial facial pains. Like really what do you do about them? I've had some minor dropping in the past mostly from clenching due to stress but never anything that resulted in chronic pain. However, cranial facial pain, including TMJ disorders and migraines are so common. So I was interested in the question, are there holistic ways to treat them? This week's guest is Dr. Dave Shirazi, a dentist who specializes in this type of chronic pain. Get ready for another episode of chronically living. I'm Kelsey Harris, a chronic illness warrior and a psychotherapist and training on chronically living and how to make the most of it. We're providing tangible ways to improve the well being of spoonies. So get ready to get the most out of your life even with that pesky chronic illness.

Dr. Dave Shirazi:

Hi, my name is Dr. Dave Shirazi, I'm a dentist, I'm an acupuncturist and I have a couple of practices in the LA area, one in Brentwood one in Thousand Oaks, and my focus i on helping people get ou of chronic pain, had neck p in, treating or resolving sno ing and sleep apnea, or doing a orm of orthodontics ca led functional orthodont

Kelsey Harris:

We're gonna get into the specifics of all this in a moment. But first, I was curious as to how Dr. For as he got into it all, most dentists I've met don't specialize in all of these things.

Dr. Dave Shirazi:

Well, my mom's a dentist. I mean, everyone in my family is a doctor or a dentist, really. And I assisted my mom when I was like 14 years old. And of course, she inspired me and I love working with my hands. And I love talking to people. I'm very chatty. So it was very easy to connect with patients with people that way. And, and I love learning. I was always a big nerd. And when I was 18, I had a cold. And my mom being a neurotic Jewish mom told me to go to the doctor, right? So I got a Kaiser. And there is like a room full of really sick people hot hacking and coughing. As I forget this, I went home, I came back an hour later, they brought me in and they gave me antibiotics, and just picking up on things that my family would say. I said, so this problems in my nose, right? It goes, yeah. I said, Well, if it's in my nose, it's a virus, right? Because probably I go well then what's the antibiotic gonna do for the virus? And he said, Well, the antibiotics will focus on the bugs in your immune system in your body so that your immune system can focus on the virus. Okay, I told my mom, and you know, she's in that genre where you just do whatever the doctor tells you to do, you don't question it. So I took it, I got better. And like I said, I was a bit of a nerd. So I looked it up in the library. This is before the internet. And, and I found out that even back then this is what I was 18 this is like 1991 we knew even back then you're not supposed to give antibiotics for viral disease because you could, you know, form a resistance to it. So I was very skeptical about traditional medicine because of that allopathic medicine. So I had decided that after dental school, I would learn something a holistic that I could do, just for the purposes of like being a parent being a husband just I wanted to learn something and then I studied Shaolin martial arts and the instructor very much pushed me to study Chinese medicine. And and I did as soon as I graduated dental school, I came back to LA and got my master's in Chinese medicine.

Kelsey Harris:

Dr. Shirazi isn't your typical dentist. We know that in addition to dental school, he studied holistic approaches, and he specializes in working with people who have chronic pain.

Dr. Dave Shirazi:

So when I when I went into dental school, my favorite part was surgery, I enjoyed surgery. And I got in, and they would show the lateral SEF X rays of these post TMJ urgeries, and then all these olts all over them bolts and crews. And I tell them I got ow did these people function ike that? And they're like, we on't know. I go, What do you ean, you're doing the surgery oes, these people don't have ery many options. And this is ike, you know, the thrown the ook out and they don't know any etter. It's very Maverick type ork. And I was so disgusted by hat. I didn't want to do that t all. So I came back and my om was always pushing me to do rthodontics, and I thought kay, well I love that. So I ook a lot of continuing ed and was really enjoying it. And I idn't know this is over 20 ears ago now. The majority of s didn't know that the elationship of sleep apnea. hildren. So we now know that leep apnea can cause almost very disease you can think bout in a child. But most, the ost common and well known are AD and ADHD, bedwetting, b havioral issues, neuralgia t pe problems. So in any event, w en we were doing the function, o thodontics all these kids and r questing tonsils not going to b taken out, we were getting a l these profound, you know, c anges, the parents would come b ck, and would say, yeah, you k ow, he's doing great in s hool. Now, he doesn't argue w th me, he's just great, and v ry rewarding, much more r warding than doing c nventional dentistry. And I l ve conventional dentistry. I 's not like I gave it up. B cause I was a frustrated d ntist, I just, this is much m re enjoyable to me. And then t e parents would say, Hey, can y u do that stuff on me? Can you t eat, you know, what you did f r my kid on me? And I thought, w ll, I think so let's give it a t y. And right around that same t me, I got into the clinic, in a upuncture school, and all t roughout the didactic t aining, they would talk about a l these things that you could c re, or resolve or greatly i prove with acupuncture or h rbs. And I just remember being s skeptical about it at the t me, like, Okay, well, you k ow, come on now, you know, t ough, exaggerating, you know, a d, and then when we got into t e clinic, I actually witnessed i with my own eyes. And I was b own away. And there are p tients who would come and they w re basically like, Vietnam v terans, and they're like, s tting there on the chair, with t eir arms folded, saying, you k ow, I didn't want to come h re, but my daughter may become s I'm going to give this try w atever. And, and, you know, e ther me, or my mentors would d acupuncture, for this injury t ey had for like 40 years. And t ey would say, you know, moving t e shoulder, it's not 100% b tter, but it's almost 100% b tter, you know, like, okay, so y u know, my eyes got begun. And t en I was able to combine that w th the training I had prior, a d I just got really good r sults.

Kelsey Harris:

I'm personally a fan of acupuncture. I was skeptical when I started having it done for my chronic pain because I had it for an ankle injury back when I was a teenager and it didn't really do anything for me. But like doctors horizons experienced as a practitioner, my eyes widened as the patients when I started to see results in my adult experiences with it. Dr. Shirazi gives us an overview of some common chronic pain disorders that he treats so if you have one of them, TMJ Disorder, chronic migraines, trigeminal neuralgia or other cranial facial pain, listen up.

Dr. Dave Shirazi:

So the name TMJ is just the name of the anatomy, right? The T stands for temporal bone, the M stands for mandibular bone and the J stands for joint a TMJ Disorder can range from just pain like inflammation, swelling, we call it an effusion, to clicking to locking to arthritis to severe pain, even on rare cases that can be cancers, you know, usually metastasized cancers, the nerves that supply that apparatus, the temporomandibular joint and the surrounding structures is profound. And there is a phenomenon in neurology called central sensitization, which basically means you have a chronic injury, you don't address it. And your brain actually goes through physical changes what we call plastic changes, and then starts making other parts of your body either hurt or behave differently.

Kelsey Harris:

Okay, so our brain changes due to chronic pain. That doesn't really sound good to me. But as Dr. schreyer, as he points out, our brains are actually designed to change because of the plasticity.

Dr. Dave Shirazi:

Okay. And those are much harder to diagnose. So for example, all migraines are centrally sensitized. Trigeminal disorder, there's all these studies that show correlation between someone with migraines and a TMJ Disorder. And a lot of them are case studies because, you know, there's no money to be made. And they'll find what, okay, the overlap between both tension type headache and migraine diabetic and TMJ disorders is very, very high. And then when we take that population that's got both, and then we resolve the TMJ Disorder, we see a huge reduction in either their tension type headache or their migrant diabetic. So it's an interesting because some people don't respond, and we don't know exactly why. Because, you know, human beings are complex creatures, right? You could have got allergies, you could have a hormone imbalance. There are so many reasons why someone might have a disorder. I sure wish It was more common knowledge that your tinnitus could be caused by a displaced TMJ joint, your pain, your tension type microtubule neuralgia, like trigeminal neuralgia, and other facial neuralgia, this can be strongly correlated with your TMJ Disorder. And if you fix it, boom, that'll lead to improvement in the other essentially sensitized disorders.

Kelsey Harris:

Right? Okay. It probably most people have no idea that that's the case.

Dr. Dave Shirazi:

Most doctors on't know. So that's the probl m. I graduated dental school in 000. I immediately st rted practicing. And in demons rate there was a joke that very dentist that's fresh o t of dental school is about even years behind. And I think t at's conservative, I think it's more than that. And research do sn't always find every single do tor, there's so much researc . So having someone that kno s it all, or that is versed wi h it all is almost impossible. R ght? So when you come out, and then the physicians forget abo t, I mean, most allopathic physi ians are trained to give a diagn sis. And then unfortunately, a c mmon treatment methodology is just drugs or surgery, you know and some drugs do cure it. S for example, we know that penic llin will cure bacterial pneum nia. Insulin for type one diabe ics, I mean, these are things that save people's lives every day. But the vast majority of them are really designed to just manage symptoms, right, hich are useful in the contex of, well, let's manage unt l we figure out why. Tha 's a problem. But unfortunately, most of the people I'd meet and most of my patients were gi en a pharmaceutical wit the intention that they take i for the rest of their l

Kelsey Harris:

Does this sound familiar to you? Because it sounds familiar to me. But if our medication is just meant to manage us not improve things, what are we to do?

Dr. Dave Shirazi:

The first thing is to just be aware, if you have a problem, right? So for example, do you wake up in the morning with sore muscles, right dry mouth, and maybe even eventually start clicking your job. All of those things are not terrible disorders. But there are warning signs that you should do something about it, you're clenching your teeth at night, I was part of a very large study almost 1200 subjects, where we took people that had TMJ disorders, and we quantified it, right, whether we did a CAT scan, MRI, whatever we did. And then we took those same people. And we did sleep studies on them, whether they were in home or in lab. And what we found was among almost 1200 patients, we saw a direct ratio in the severity of their sleep apnea, and the severity of their TMJ Disorder. And you might think, Well, why are those two things even remotely related? Well, we found that a little over 10 years ago, that half the time roughly, depending on which study you look at, the reason why we clench our teeth, is because of poor airflow and our sleep. In an overnight sleep study, we met we have like 20 leads on the patient, we're looking at their oxygen brainwaves, muscle activity, airflow, thermistor. And what we found was half the time when their airflow started to dip their muscle constructions and their masters What up, and then when their airflow was restored, then their muscular activity just dropped. And the other 50% of the time, we didn't see a direct correlation about anything we're measuring to, you know, the clenching. So, so that's, that's meaningful. that's meaningful. The other thing we know about sleep apnea, is that untreated, as you get older, it gets worse. Mm hmm. Right. So if you were clenching your teeth a little bit when you're 17 years old, and just occasionally having jaw pain or headaches, by the time you're 30, you're going to clinch a whole heck of a lot and being, you know, much more worse condition so that just having the awareness of those early cues and saying you know what, I should at least do something to protect my jaw.

Kelsey Harris:

I found this next part of the conversation very interesting because I have an ex who was diagnosed with TMJ Disorder and was given a night guard for it. But was that the best treatment option,

Dr. Dave Shirazi:

you would go to someone who just limits their practice to this so in dental school, they teach us night guards, which I'm sure everyone knows what a night guard is by now. And night guards are really designed to protect the teeth and to protect the dentistry. And that's a very useful feature By the way, I'm not downgrading that. However, what we find is they do no favors for your jaw, your jaw positioning or your clenching for that matter. A couple of other studies came to light, which is very fascinating, where they took patients that had sleep apnea, and they couldn't tolerate the seatback and they were clenching their teeth, and they gave him a night guard. But here's the caveat, they did a second sleep study on them with their night guard. What they found was, again, roughly half the patients, their apnea got more severe, with the night guard without, you know, untreated sleep apnea, and they clenched a lot harder. And then you know, what happens is when you sleep on your back, your jaw falls back, when you sleep on your sides, your jaw falls to that side, and then you sort of clenching nashit your teeth at that position, which is not natural, right. And then you compound it by someone having loose ligaments, you know, like a lot of athletes, gymnast cheerleaders, they have very loose ligaments, so their jaw will go to all sorts of directions on they're trying to clench,

Kelsey Harris:

I think we have a pretty good overview about TMJ Disorder now. But what about some of the other types of cranial facial pain out there,

Dr. Dave Shirazi:

like we were talking about earlier, so jaw pain, tension type headaches, migraines, we can talk about the aspect of how our maxilla our upper jaw, it's the roof of our mouth, but at the same time, it's the floor of our nose. So when we develop out the maxilla, when we expand the jaws, we actually get an improvement in nasal breathing, we also get an A huge improvement in facial cosmetics, because the maxilla articulates with eight pairs of bones, and the septum of the nose. So when you're developing those arches, you're just kind of pulling your face, like outward, and that kind of standard European, good looking face for cranial facial pain like so for example, the number two cause of ear issues, ear pain, ear congestion, tinnitus, things like that, are TMJ disorders, number one being infectious. And number two being TMJ disorders. Because I mean, you know, your ear is right here and your jaws right in front of it. There was a great paper written, I think, 40 years ago now, by a physician called TMJ, the great imposter, where he had just observed over years and years of clinical practice, so many people came in with ear problems, headaches, you know, anything you can think of neck pain. And, you know, he would just out of curiosity would ask him if they also clench their teeth, or had cooking or a jaw pain, muscle soreness? And oftentimes, the answer was yes. And the literature supported, you know, what he observed?

Kelsey Harris:

Okay, so my takeaway from all of this is that if you have any type of cranial facial pain, start with some awareness of what's happening with your jaw, and maybe get it looked at first. Because in many cases, it seems that fixing TMJ problems will help fix all these other ones.

Dr. Dave Shirazi:

Just having the awareness finding the right person to work with and be your doctor and kind of listen to you and what you have going on. And realize that, you know, your head is not separate from your jaw, which is not separate from your neck, which is not separate from your sacrum, which is not separate from your gut, which is separate from your hormones, and at least of which are psychology, that's also a big part of it. Right? So one thing I always invite, I was just telling the patient today, one thing I always invite people to do, is to take what's called the meta position. Just this is just a general suggestion to life. And a meta position. Like when we do a meta analysis and research, we kind of look at everything that's there, and then we step away from it, and kind of look above it, and go, Okay, so what does this look like what's happening here? Right? Like when we observe ant behavior, or spider behavior, or shark behavior, we take the meta position, we step back, we observe, and we see if we can draw any conclusions because of common repetitions. So one thing I will tell people is that in Hong Kong, it's considered polite to burp at the dinner table. Okay, it means you ate fast, right? And because you ate fast, you got air in your stomach, and then you had to burp. Right? It's such a well known thing, that kids will fake burp at the dinner table to let the mom know that it's yummy. And of course here in the West, we would find it rude and disgusting to burp at the dinner table. So if we take the meta position, we can conclude that burping at the dinner table doesn't carry an intrinsic meaning. It is a neutral event and it is Our choice to respond to it as either a positive or negative thing. It's always there, everything is neutral.

Kelsey Harris:

What Dr. Shiraz calls the meta position is wha I refer to as the observer sel or the noticing self. When I' working with clients durin psychotherapy, it might seem bit strange to have thi conversation when we're talkin about chronic pain, but it' not, we can learn a lot abou the pain and about ourselves b taking the step back. Here's really good example of th neutrality of Well, everything

Dr. Dave Shirazi:

So if we extrapolate to the whole planet, there's 2 billion people on this planet who believe that eating pork and shrimp is dirty and sinful. And right next to those 2 billion people, there's another billion people or so billion plus, that they believe Well, you know, pork and shrimp is fine. You just can't have cow milk, no beef, okay. And then there's about three and a half billion people that say, well, you can eat any animal you want, just not on certain days of the year. And then there's another half to 1 billion people who say, well, you shouldn't eat any animal. So if we take the meta position, we can conclude that eating or not eating any animal any day of the year, doesn't carry an intrinsic belief to it, it's just, it's a neutral event, other than the fact that you are most of the time technically killing it. People have gone to wars over these kinds of beliefs. And it's our choice how we want to respond to something as opposed to react. So the word react means re acting, we're just taking an action that we've done before pre programmed, and just rehashing it over and over again. Whereas with the response, we can take a moment, take a meta position, and go Okay, so not just for the situation, but from my overall well being. Okay, what's the best way for me to handle this?

Kelsey Harris:

So my question to everyone listening is, do you react or respond to your chronic pain,

Dr. Dave Shirazi:

and I'm very pro therapy, by the way, I wish people would go see a therapist and talk about what's bothering them. Don't keep it a secret, don't hold it in your stomach, just let it out.

Kelsey Harris:

Remember that all specialists have different training your GP or another physician has different training than doctor for as a as a dentist, or myself as a psychotherapist, which is why I always advocate building a healthcare team.

Dr. Dave Shirazi:

I've talking to so many physicians, they're not oftentimes they're so smart. And they're so knowledgeable, but they're not trained to think in the context of what are the known causes of this, that the patient is coming into? What is their lifestyle? Like? Are they getting sleep? For example, like I mentioned earlier with children, there's, I don't know any disease in adults or children, that isn't either directly caused by or indirectly accelerated by lack of good sleep. Coming back to that to medicine, the thought process is mostly Okay, well, how do we manage the symptoms that were patients are coming in with today, which, in an emergency situation, that's exactly what you want. Most diseases are progressive in nature, including psychological ones, and, and having something that we can intercept, the disease intercept the lifestyle, intercept their sleeping patterns, we can have really powerful effects, as opposed to waiting until it's so bad.

Kelsey Harris:

Okay, time to start wrapping this up, I find that there are always some good insights in these lightning round questions. So let's hear what Dr Shirazi has to say. What are the top five songs that describe your life?

Dr. Dave Shirazi:

Describe y life. Well, you know, y favorite song is Sympho y country Dante by Mozart. And f I had to describe that song n one word, it would be beautifu . Just a beautiful, it played n my wedding, you know, and y wife is walking down the aisl . I just love that song. And y life is beautiful. I'm o grateful for the people in y life, my staff, my patients, y eight year old, of course, y wife and the people I've be n able to help and hopeful y continue to hel

Kelsey Harris:

That's amazing. What's one thing you can't go a day without doing?

Dr. Dave Shirazi:

I don't know my mood changes. You know, like some days I gotta have my coffee other days to the way other days. I don't want any of it. I love driving like sports car driving and track or Kenyans that to me, it's like I'll do that just for the hell of it. You know, I don't need a place to go. I'll just do it for the heck of it. I guess you know what? I cannot not kiss my son's face and bye Just cheeks. So if I did if I didn't do one day of that, it would probably not be a good day.

Kelsey Harris:

Amazing. What's one thing you plan on doing in your life that you haven't done yet?

Dr. Dave Shirazi:

travel to space? I would absolutely love that. I love traveling in general. I love meeting new people I've been I've traveled a lot. But there's so much more traveling I want to do.

Kelsey Harris:

Yeah, me too. I love traveling. It's the best. Describe your perfect day.

Dr. Dave Shirazi:

Perfect Day. Well, I'm probably hiking in the Sequoia, you know, and just surrounded by the giant redwoods. And I have a delicious meal, you know, breakfast, lunch and dinner. And the next day, I end up losing a couple pounds. And I get to be with my family and I get to help people. That'd be a great day.

Kelsey Harris:

Some How do you inspire your patients to make the most of their lives?

Dr. Dave Shirazi:

Well, kind of like what I was telling you about earlier about taking a moment to just take in voice in their thoughts in their environments, and what have you, there is a book called Man's Search for Meaning

Kelsey Harris:

I just finish d reading tha

Dr. Dave Shirazi:

There you go. There you go. Viktor Frankl, right? He came up because he's German, he had to be a formula, right? He came up with a formula that said, between stimulus and response, there is space. And in that space, you can choose, you can choose how you want to feel about it, you can choose how you want to be with yourself. Right? So that is something, I trust me, I do not want to be a therapist, God bless you for wanting to be one, I don't know how you all do it, I just want to give them a hug. Deal with their problems, right. So what I could do is just kind of just leave them with a pearl. And just let them do with it with with what they might on their own time.

Kelsey Harris:

The book Dr. Shirazi is talking about Man' Search for Meaning is one highly recommend reading. An what he just said about th choice we can make, it can fee really difficult when we hav chronic pain to see the choice available to us. But they ar still there. Part of using tha observer self or meta positio is being able to notice th choices available and to us that to respond rather tha react. Just Finally, where ca we find you and follow you an all that

Dr. Dave Shirazi:

Right. So the easiest way is my website, TMJ la.com, which is also the same as TMJ, conejos CO and ej o.com. And we have a lot of knowledge on there are some podcasts, his recordings, I'm sure yours will be on there. And just a lot of information that people can arm themselves with. And yeah, that's the best way. And if they want to find someone in their own area, there is a website called TMJ Therapy Center, which the center is spelled CMT r e Comm. And you can go to the patient portal, and you can just type in your zip code, and they'll find your local Doc, my office by two offices are like two out of 65 throughout the world. Maybe more by now, I don't know. But we're all over the US, Canada, England, Bahrain, Dubai, Australia, New Zealand. And these are people who are very like minded, like myself, who use the techniques I use only although there is one other one that's also an acupuncturist, but so far, just two of us.

Kelsey Harris:

Okay, nice. That's awesome. That's very helpful. Thank you so much for coming on today and sharing all this great knowledge with us. My pleasure. Thank you for asking such great questions. Oh, that was fun. Okay, so it's time for us to start using that observer self, actually much in the same way we did at the end of last episode. So if you listen to that one, you're probably already a bit familiar with this. What did you get out of this episode, just one or two takeaways? I know that for me, it's noticing what's going on with my body by using that observer self and then building the right health care team to treat it. I wouldn't have thought of a dentist in helping with migraines. And yeah, it sounds like that might be someone who can help if you find one with the right specialties. What have you noticed about your own thoughts and feelings as you listen to this episode? What are you noticing now as we do some reflection together. Make sure you check out Dr. suresies website for more information and tag me on Instagram with your what your takeaways from the episode where and don't forget to subscribe rate and review the show wherever you get your podcasts and share this with friends who might need to get some insight out of it as well. Also, I totally appreciate any support you have for the show by following the Patreon link in the show notes until I talk to you now. Next week, making the most special thanks to Nicole sicura for the original music and to charity Williams for